Hi Glenn
Thanks for your question. It has given me a great day today.
I had never even thought about such a question before you asked it last night.
I have previously considered and made decisions about the lesser question -
why can't people, especially church leaders, see what God is going to do for all mankind?
- but I have never considered why they are so hostile to the plan.
Why is God's plan to save all so abhorrent to most Christians, and especially to church leaders?
So ...... I have spent much of the day waiting on God, in prayer and in His Word.
I've had a wonderful day.
I won't go into any of the details of my journey through the day, but simply say that I believe "God's plan to restore all" challenges mankind's real god at the deepest level.
Most of mankind's real god is self, and their most prized possession is their free will.
This is true of most Christians as well.
Man prides himself on his right and ability to make his own decisions as a free agent, as do most Christians.
Most Christians are proud of their decision to choose Christ, to be saved, to become a disciple, to join the church, or whatever.
I became a Christian when I .....
I was saved when I .......
I was appointed a church elder or board member when I ........
I led this person or that person to Christ when I .......
And on it goes.
They believe their wise and/or clever choices have given them "rightly deserved" advantages over those who haven't been so wise or clever, and they should get the credit for that.
When the idea that it is God who chooses who and how many will be saved, and when and how that will happen, most Christians, and particularly church leaders, are threatened to the core.
Things aren't under their control as they thought and they can no longer take credit for the good things they have done.
Their choice to invite Christ into their hearts or to enter the ministry or to accept the appointment or position they now have is no longer considered to be their doing.
Self, their god, has been brutally challenged and dethroned - and they want none of it.
Don't talk about it. Don't even think about it. It's heresy. It's dangerous. It will get you into trouble. Don't associate with people who talk like that.
They will happily preach on the sovereignty of God, as long as you don't take it to extremes or suggest it applies to everything and everyone.
For them, God is a lesser sovereign than self.
For them, God's plan for salvation only works when we agree to it.
And if you suggest that we might not have the final word on this, look out.
The second chapter of my book is on the sovereignty of God.
That should guarantee it will never be recommended to those in mainstream churches.
Blessings, Barry
wow... that is food for thought !
ReplyDeleteThanks Barry
ReplyDeleteYour perspective on this topic is a real eye opener for me! Up until now my assumption was that a 'save all' plan was bad for the church because that removes the big fear motivator to get right with God. For many many centuries the church has used the fear of eternal hell to coax conversions, and let's be honest, you could not get anything more frightening than an eternal stay in hell. So it would be a powerful argument for conversion and I can understand their reluctance to abandon it. Conversions mean numbers, numbers mean growth, growth means more power and control and influence.
But I was never comfortable with the mainstream church clinging to that premise for conversion and I suspected something more was going on that was making Christians dislike the 'save all' plan, so your insights are on the mark.
I had one young and outspoken Christian tell me that a 'save all' plan was a 'cop out', because Christians would cease to evangelise and 'save people' and just sit back and wait and do no kingdom work.
To be honest, if we Christians were responsible for humanity's salvation through conversions and preaching then we should be troubled deeply to the point of despair every time we see another 'unsaved' individual turn away. We are not made to cope with the weight of humanity's sin, and we always hand the person 'over to God' for further work and prayer - once again facing the reality that we are not in control of salvation.
Kingdom work is good and rewarding but we all know deep down that the saving bit is something God and only God does, when and how he chooses. We it seems, are just messengers.
The other objection I suspect church leaders have to a 'save all' plan is that there are several bible verses that use the word 'eternal' and 'hell' in the same sentence, and of course the 'narrow road to salvation' and 'wide road to destruction' analogy Jesus uses.
Perhaps there have been some interesting decisions made by the bible translators over the years. Does anybody know of any controversy/conflict between original and translated versions when it comes to salvation and punishment?
Glenn
Thanks Glenn for sharing your thoughts.
DeleteI agree with the fear and power reasons you have suggested for why Christians, and particularly church leaders, can't or won't accept the 'save all' plan of God.
Spot on !!
I think there are a few other reasons as well, but I won't introduce them here as I think you've raised enough points for us to discuss already.
Let's start with one of the Biblical topics you mentioned.
".... there are several bible verses that use the word 'eternal' and 'hell' in the same sentence, ...."
I don't know where to find a verse like this, even in the worst of our English translations.
I am guessing you may be referring to the one in Matt 25 :46, which is commonly translated as
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." [ NIV ]
A literal translation of this verse is
"And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life." [ Rotherham ]
I could write on this verse for hours, but some brief comments here. (The appendix to the book and the associated website will have full coverage.)
Eternal is an incorrect translation. It should be age-lasting, age-abiding, age-during or some other word related to age, as the Gk word is the adjective form of the noun 'age'.
Punishment is an old agricultural Gk work for pruning - cutting/correcting to make the right shape and/or to make more productive.
So better translations of 'eternal punishment' are 'age-related correction' or 'rehab during the age'.
This explanation, of course, gets people upset for another reason ....... It forces us to say that the life being spoken of is therefore (only) age-related life, not eternal life.
Which is true !!
The Bible never addresses eternal life, that I can find.
It only addresses age-related life, or life during the age.
And the age in focus is the coming kingdom age because this parable of Jesus - indeed the whole of chapter 25 - is talking about the King and his kingdom, which was the sole focus of his Jewish audience.
Consequently, the life being promised in the parable is life in the coming kingdom age.
So this verse is saying that during the coming kingdom age, one group will be rehabilitated and one group will enjoy life.
(And this will enable God's ultimate purpose to be achieved of everyone being ready to eventually live in fellowship with him.)
I'll post a separate comment on the narrow and wide roads shortly.
Blessings, Barry
Hi Glenn
DeleteAs promised, the next reply to your comment on my post re the hostility of church leaders to the "save all" plan of God.
" ..... the 'narrow road to salvation' and 'wide road to destruction' analogy Jesus uses."
This statement by Jesus is towards the end of his 'sermon on the mount' recorded in Matthew chapters 5, 6 and 7.
Enter ye in at, the narrow gate; because broad and roomy is the way that leadeth unto destruction,—and, many, are they who enter thereby:
Because, narrow, is the gate, and, confined, the way, that leadeth unto life,—and, few, are they who find, it. [ Matthew 7 : 13 - 14 Rotherham ]
The whole sermon, spoken to a Jewish audience, is about the standard of behaviour required for entry into the kingdom that they were expecting Jesus to establish, and therefore the life being referred to is life in the kingdom, life in the coming kingdom age.
As I have come to understand it, all are to be saved eventually, but only those who have been given faith and who do the will of God in this age will rule with Christ in his kingdom in the next age. [ Matthew 7 : 21 ]
And the way to this life is narrow and confined (or difficult), and found by few.
All of the sermon on the mount is about performance: nothing about grace or forgiveness, etc. Jesus was telling the Jews what was required of them to enter the kingdom. He later died for their sins (and ours) because it was impossible for them (and us) to perform to the level required.
However as believers, we have the Holy Spirit available to prune us and shape us into the character of Christ and so qualify for kingdom life - if we submit to him and do his will.
Saying that the narrow gate leads to salvation and the wide gate leads to hell, which most people do, is adding so much to the words and context of Jesus' message. No only is this misleading, it perpetuates the concept of eternal torment in hell which completely contradicts God's plan and purpose of the ages that he revealed to Paul. [ Ephesians 1 : 9 - 10 ]
Hope this helps with these passages that mainstream Christians find opposed to the idea that God is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe. [ 1 Tim 4 : 10 ]
I'll discuss the 'cop out' expressed by the young and outspoken Christian tomorrow.
Blessings, Barry
The 'cop out' comment.
Delete"I had one young and outspoken Christian tell me that a 'save all' plan was a 'cop out', because Christians would cease to evangelise and 'save people' and just sit back and wait and do no kingdom work."
There are a couple of issues here.
Some have been covered in the post on January 3 called "A Frequent Question."
Have another read of that post.
The verse quoted in that post is followed in the Bible by "Command and teach these things." [ 1 Tim 4 : 11 NIV ]
So that's another great reason to evangelise - to share the good news about God and his doings for our benefit. We have been told to do it, and I want to be doing what God tells me to do.
Indeed if we don't share the good news, how will anyone come to faith (unless they are travelling on the road to Damascus) because we are told that faith comes by hearing the word of God? [ Romans 10 : 17 ]
The usual pattern seems to be for people to hear the word of God about Christ, and those chosen for salvation in this age are given the faith to believe it.
That should cover the evangelise bit of his 'cop out' comment.
Now what about doing kingdom work?
Reading between the lines this comment is equating salvation with being in the kingdom, as most people do. But they are quite different, as I mentioned in the previous reply.
One of our tasks, as the church, is to help people prepare to participate in the kingdom.
Once believers are identified (by expressing faith in the word about Christ that they have heard), it's then our job to encourage and help them to grow into Christ-likeness and become worthy of the kingdom and ready to rule in it.
All of this is no 'cop out'. It is truly kingdom work.
Blessings, Barry
Hi guys,
ReplyDeleteThis issue touches on the foundation of taking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which ties in well with the concept of free choice, which Barry covered well.
Thinking of another reason why people resist the idea of universal reconciliation, the bottom line is that human nature resists the notion that it is wrong, or has been deceived. Change is a really difficult thing to bring about in many different human settings. Add to that the powerful influence of the Kingdom of Darkness, and no wonder the resistance.
I find with so many issues involving spiritual truth that understanding comes as a gift. If we have it, we can be grateful, but need to be careful when it comes to sharing it as it may invite hostility. We need to be led by the Spirit in how we share it.
Cheers, Roger
Too true.
DeleteI'm often not as careful as I ought to be.
I'm more like a kid who gets a new bike for Christmas.
I want to show it to everyone as soon as I meet them - on Christmas Day by preference. :-)
Blessings, Barry
Read it all Barry, and I agree totally. I also share maybe a bit too enthusiastically. I really want to shout it from the roof tops.
ReplyDeleteWhen people say 'why should we evangelise then?!' this comes to my mind every time, people don't know that they are loved, L O V E D, why on earth wouldn't we want to share that God loves them. The goodnews are sooo good but how will they know that if we don't go, if we don't share it. The Bible says that it's the goodness of God that leads us to repentance, so let's share about His goodness.
God Bless
Charlotte
Thanks Charlotte for stopping by and sharing your thoughts. I totally agree.
DeletePlease keep in touch.
Blessings, Barry